shares these values with the original wiki from which it was spawned ...
- Collaboration in the hopes of discovering original thought.
- Civility, even in the face of the contrary.
chooses to be different from the original wiki in these ways ...
- Free to explore the possible rather than always grounded in experience.
- Embraces differences of opinion rather than striving for common ground.
- Encourage conflict on issues of substance.
- Any viewpoint not supported by reason and scholarship will be permitted only at the forbearance of the community.
- Allow any respectable scholarly viewpoint, no matter how offensive to the general population.
- Utmost respect for intellectual honesty and minimizing of deceit.
- Permit honest and justified value judgements.
There is some SociologyWikiDiscussion
as well as a SociologyWikiSeedList
The first attempt to implement the SociologyWiki
idea lasted a month before it failed. See http://grault.net/sociology/
Once upon a time SociologyWiki
didn't exist and it appeared likely it never would. It's supposed charter was to be "to discuss and explore political, economic, psychological and philosophical issues."
The trouble with this is that "discussing and exploring" mainly means flaming and poo-pooing. In other words, noise. No one was willing to waste bandwidth hosting such a thing, and most WikiZens
looked on the prospect with trepidation and loathing.
So all the SociologyWikiSeedList
pages languished, unwanted and unloved, for months and years.
But then some bright lads and ladies created a new and different way to salvage the signal in these pages. While TheReformSociety
does not welcome these pages as is, it wants the meat of them refactored into its rather spiffy PatternForm
So if you have a fondness for debate on these topics, or if you just hope that something, anything, can be done about the sorry state of the world in general and C2 in particular at the moment, come help us do this work! -- PeterMerel
Unfortunately, Pete has let things slide just a bit while he sorts out the logistics of serving tea in the Oz jungle. But you can still edit if you're very keen. Or ...
The third try at providing a forum for OffTopic
material is at TheAdjunct
, again, kindly provided by EarleMartin
type pages may be moved there until a more focused SociologyWiki
is created. Of course you can still refactor material to TheReformSociety
too if you like.
Of course those of us with cynical temperaments pointed out that setting up a wiki designed expressly to attract the most vitriolic and immature denizens of C2 was perhaps unwise. It's likely that any future attempts to set up a sociology wiki are similarly doomed because they're doing the equivalent of trying to have a serious intellectual discussion on alt.flame. Hopefully the demise of Earle's wiki will serve as a lesson to others. Sometimes just because something is possible doesn't mean it must happen. Sadly I doubt if anything will be learned. This message will be deleted by those who would most benefit from it's advice and they'll keep trundling along their malicious path.
It's the opinion of all those who advocated SearchForTruth
(all two of them) that Earle was solely at fault for the fiasco that became Earle's wiki. As should be obvious even to idiots, a SearchForTruth
wiki can't function as it's supposed to if its host and moderator doesn't believe in the process and tries to sabotage it in order to implement some deranged ShoppingForTruth?
instead. As a result, the failure of Earle's wiki says absolutely nothing
about the likelihood of success of a SearchForTruth
wiki. Of course, that won't stop enemies of such a wiki from proclaiming its demise before it's even tried.
The reason people are proclaiming its demise is because those who are most vocal in their support for it are talkers rather than doers. No matter what you think of Earle you have to respect the fact that he took action.
No you don't. Who do you respect more, NoamChomsky
I'm pretty sure Earle wouldn't consider it complimentary to be compared with that mass murderer.
Earle "took action" because he was too stupid to know what he was getting in for. The "talkers" are the ones who understand what a consuming job it is to be a good host for a wiki. Do you really respect stupidity?
Earle "took action" but he didn't follow through on it, staying uninvolved and as far back from the wiki he'd initiated as possible. The "talkers" are not so hypocritical, they'll either be involved wholesale or not at all. Do you really respect waffling, half-heartedness and hypocrisy?
Or do you mean "respect the fact
that he took action" in the sense that his taking a destructive course of action necessitated a serious counter-move. Much like Osama bin Laden "took action" and George Bush respected the fact
that he did by creating the War On Terrorism?
At least tell people when you expect to get it off the ground.
I intended to take action before January 1st 2004 when Earle's wiki was taken permanently offline.
You must have some rough idea or have taken some steps to get it going? So tell us about them.
- BK offered to host RSW using something like Why's engine. I've accepted
- Earle emailed me a copy of the database. So now there's no rush, I can migrate pages at leisure if I have to.
- Ben is checking out whether he can migrate pages from UseMod's to GreenLightWiki's format. I think preserving the history (and my free time) is sufficiently important to let him decide yea or nay before proceeding.
- Looking for a domain. All of truth.*, searchfortruth.*, search-for-truth.*, and even veritas.* (which means truth, reality, honesty and justice) are taken. A domain name is hardly necessary but it would be nice.
- Will open RSW once I have a sufficiently large block of free time, probably around New Year's 2004.
- Oh, and CostinCozianu need not fear "theft of content"; I certainly do not intend to keep anything he's written without heavy rewriting.
- You are not entitled to rewrite anything, you moron. [Well, in the anarchistic Wiki world, the only thing preventing him would be reason and goodwill, and perhaps not even that. Sure he is entitled to rewrite it, at least where it is not signed. Perhaps you mean where it is signed. But that is not "anything". I hope you, and Costin, will be there at the inauguration of the new wiki to stand up for reason and evidence, since Richard obviously cannot do this on his own. ]
- Of course I won't be there, not in the unlikely event Richard would allow me to. Since SociologyWiki wanted to be a spawn off this wiki, there was an incentive for me to be there to defend some kind of reason and intellectual honesty. Since the new wiki will be earmarked "this is RichardKulisz' pissing ground and there won't be any foreseeable way for Richard to pretend that to be a real wiki or remotely comparable to WardsWiki, well, a bon entendeur salut, I can't waste my time with Richard.
- There will be a strong reason why Richard won't be able to steal pages and contributions either from WardsWiki and SociologyWiki: the site appears to be hosted by BenKovitz, which I am reasonably sure will have nothing like that.
Now Richard is back at it. Of course, as predicted, he completely failed to create anything good on his own as he bragged about it. He wants to transform parts of WardsWiki
to old style commie propaganda. Such usage is clearly inappropriate for this wiki, and it's an insult brought to honest contributors to this site, and as such it shall be dealt with swiftly and promptly as per the discussion in SensitiveOffTopic
. If people waste time and energy in engaging RichardKulisz
pages they do it on their own risk while good chances are it will lead no where. Please MoveItElsewhere
See comment on your homepage. As much as I think RichardKuliszs opinions on politics are a steaming pile of horsey-doo, we don't need you, Costin, acting as LordProtector? of Wiki, charging to the rescue and deleting anything that he utters that you think is dangerous, because it happens to promote an ideology that you despise. Wiki hardly needs rescue from "commies". Communism, in case you haven't noticed, is dead. China is communist in name only; Vietnam is sitting on the fence and likely to fall off (being highly addicted to capitalist money) - only North Korea and Cuba remain as true communist bulwarks, and neither are much to write home about. Cuba will likely undergo radical change once Fidel Castro dies - he's 80+, so it won't take too long.
First of all you dishonestly present the situation, get some of your facts straight, please. It's not a matter of communism, versus fascism, versus whatever you feel like. As someone who invested a great deal of effort into providing content from this wiki, I have a very legitimate interest to clean it from trash.
Of course you'll disagree by replying that one man's trash is another man's piece of jewelry. Since the overall objective is to maximize value for everyone, it has long been established as a wiki community pattern that such controversies on off topic subject are to be taken out. Only some folks keep forgetting history (or pretending they've forgotten it). No need to rehash here old debates, unless you have something new and interesting to say.
This wiki being a collective effort undertaken by many honest contributors shall not be taken advantage of not by RK, nor by RA, not even by CostinCozianu
, nor by anyone to serve as a propaganda tool. If you don't like the situation and want to enjoy the pleasure of polluting wiki with rambling on any OffTopic
subject, you always have the option to MoveItElsewhere
Can we delete this page? It seems to be mostly flames and little else...
If we just delete it, a time may come when people will re-learn lessons of the past the hard way. Documenting an interesting episode from the history of this wiki maybe useful for future reference, so I'd like to take a stab at refactoring. If I can't do it by 7th of May 2005, then probably it should be deleted. Is anybody else able to help? -- CostinCozianu
I don't mind helping, but I don't see it as that big a job. What do you have in mind? -- MarkTilley
Nothing big. I thought I didn't have time to put it right so I'll be as concise as I could and leave refactoring or elaboration.
The basic story is: politics, sociology, economics, etc, are SensitiveOffTopic
, but on the other hand they are on the minds of wiki regulars, especially since they're tangent to software in many places. But in order to MoveItElsewhere
there is a need for someone to CreateAnElsewhere?
generously did just that.
failed because ReconcilingIrreconcilableDifferencesOnWiki
fails in absence of more sophisticated wiki technology and in presence of hostile parties. RK would have liked a place where most of his ideas should be reflected unpolluted by objections of amateurs like myself, but I found such a proposition unreasonable, specifically because Earle's SociologyWiki
was projected to become a SisterSite
(and therefore be both associated and derive popularity and prestige from WikiWikiWeb
). Earle decided to pull the plug so the final analysis should be his.
Other than that, my experience with SociologyWiki
as well as with AndStuff
lead me to think about WikiChangeProposal
. The eternal recurring pattern is this: given a very hot topic (politics, religion, OO vs. relational databases, etc), a non-trivial public interest, hostile parties, what are the features that are needed in the software in order for the community to still be able to build a wiki. WikiChangeProposal
is my suggested solution and is kind of complicated, but if anybody has better ideas, improvements or criticism, I'll appreciate the feedback.
The problem to CreateAnElsewhere?
for politics, economy, sociology and even religion that is compelling enough to take the heat off this wiki remains open. Creative ideas and solutions will be enormously appreciated. -- CostinCozianu
The elsewhere is now at TheAdjunct.
Possible political/sociology/economic wiki's